In 1961, researchers did a survey of societal stigma among a large group of children. They were to rate six things in order of desirability, from best to last. The things were: an average, normal person; an obese person; a person with a facial disfigurement; someone with only one hand; someone on crutches, and a person in a wheelchair. The order in which they were ranked by the children from best to last were: An average person; a person on crutches; someone in a wheelchair; a missing hand; a facial disfigurement, and finally, an obese person.
Children would rather be permanently disabled than obese, something which can be changed. In fact, they'd rather be facially disfigured than obese. These were remarkable findings, and the study became famous in sociology circles. The study was repeated with nearly 460 children in 2001, 40 years later.
Once again, they rated the average person as most desirable, but differed somewhat on the others. Second was a facial disfigurement; third, crutches; then a missing hand; a person in a wheelchair, and once again, someone obese was in last place. The results were surprising, in that a facial disfigurement, something permanent and highly visible, was rated as more desirable than being on crutches, which is temporary and heals itself. Obesity's scores were even lower than they'd been in 1961, while obesity itself had increased in numbers across the board, adults, teens and children--including those who participated in the survey!
Just when one would expect that negative feelings toward obesity should be dropping, it turned out that children had learned at a young age that it's worse to be fat than almost anything else. Even the obese children had internalized these negative images and outright hate of the obese, and were engaged in self-loathing.
This certainly must be worked on with people's kids, both at home and in school. Just as most intelligent people are doing with racism and other bigotry, we need to purge it from our country's culture of prejudice. We'll have the easiest time of it, as we do with any bias, by starting with children. But intelligent adults can change. We'll never get anything out of the stupid, so there's not much hope for them, but we haven't been able to change them about any prejudice they have. As far as I'm concerned, let them keep each other company. I have no need of them in my life. I have enough bright, funny, talented, and imaginative/creative friends. I don't need to waste time fooling around with morons.
So that's my rant for today. I apologize for disappearing for so long. Work just wore me out. No real excuse; that the explanation. I hope it gave you respite from my nonsense. :~)
See you tomorrow.
I was glad to see you had posted today. I was worried that you might be doing something unhealthy. You sound as spunky as ever!! I think the media has a lot to do with this - young women are taught very young that their purpose on earth is sex. These sitcoms on TV - Friends I think it is - show promiscuity every episode and there aren't any consequences and everything is funny and happy. Sex in the City, that Charlie Sheen show - there's not enough room here. Obesity doesn't go along with being sexually desirable. Women are objectified. Do some research on crimes against women if you want to be sick at your stomach. Everywhere I go anymore there is cleavage in my face. My husband has said there is nothing left to the imagination. I think I am getting off-topic here but this pushes my buttons. I wonder if the results were evaluated by male and female - that would probably be interesting. I guess those other groups would not be sexually desirable either so I may just be off track. Do we know how old the kids were? Anyway - that's my rant and glad you're back. Did you read my last post about getting comfortable at each weight and then inching (or pounding) yourself up?
ReplyDeleteI was glad to see you posting today. I agree that there is a stigma attached to obesity. I think the reason is that people assume that the obese are responsible for their own issue and that the others were just born disfigured of had an accident sometime. People think of obesity as deliberate gluttony and have not understanding of the psychological issues underlying obesity. Until that is more understood obesity will be blamed on the individual.
ReplyDeleteGood morning, Karen. I'm behind on reading your blog--catch up is today!
ReplyDeleteYes, most people--even obese people--don't realize the complexity that exists in the development of obesity. If all it took were eating too much, we'd all have been obese at some point. I realized this in my 20's, when I was struggling with my weight (again). It dawned on me that I was eating all that I wanted, of whatever I wanted, and never hungry (eating 'til full), and that I would never weigh 200 pounds. Never. It slapped me in the face, really. I had enough appetite that I was overweight, but not enough to be obese. In fact, I now realize that had I been more active, as humans are supposed to be naturally/historically, I wouldn't even have been overweight. Around that time I was introduced to the Fat Pride movement. The two things made me realize how biased I was myself about weight/obesity, and how wrong I'd been about the causes, plus how much of my desperate desire to lose 25 lbs. was due to my inner self-hatred, not any health reasons.
A real wake-up call! I was just lucky--born with a body that didn't have the genetics to be obese, and a psych profile that, while eating-disordered, didn't promote it, either. Others were not as lucky.
I'm convinced that many--maybe most?--people who are prejudiced against the obese don't want to change, and partly fear obesity; that they'll get fat themselves. Racists and sexists are comfortable in their bigotry, too.
Uh oh--another rant. lol
downsizers, you're preaching to the choir. Most women are taught by their parents, then by all the culture, that they are little more than property of a man. First their fathers, then their partners. This starts when they're merely little girls! I used to say that gender politics started the seconds after delivery, when the boy infant is wrapped in a blue blanket, and the girl in pink.
ReplyDeleteThanks for your rant. We all need one every once in a while.
Yes, I did make note of your suggestion about maintaining my weight after gaining to get to 100 lbs. I'll be totally honest with you because you've been so with me. I decided to not answer because I didn't want to worry you, and didn't want to admit that I couldn't/wouldn't do that. It sounds sane and easy to tell an anorexic just to gain some weight; essentially, to engage in the terrible struggle and panic-inducing activity of eating more. I maintained at 98-100 for about six months, even though it scared me, because I promised my PCP I would. Also, my therapist and pdoc were threatening me with an involuntary commitment to an eating disorder clinic.
I researched that, however, and found out they couldn't do that legally in this state, so I relaxed. Still, I maintained. But it seems that I got "worse." The whole time was frightening. Losing weight has reduced that fear tremendously. I know you probably can't understand that, but it's true. I'm much more relaxed now. To try to gain weight at this point would make me cry constantly, and live in fear.
I'm sorry. Please don't worry about me; plus I hate like hell to disappoint you. But all of that is true.
I forgot. The survey was conducted with fifth and sixth graders, so ages 10-11.
ReplyDeleteIt's only nonsense if you view it that way. No need to apologize. I was a little worried, seeing that you seem to post regular and your last post was labeled as nothing to say. I was worried that you were viewing yourself negatively in regards to your recent weigh in. Glad you're back. :) (((hugs)))
ReplyDeleteSo in light of this post and the poll and where obesity lies at in the mind of children, how is it a positive thing when you have the First Lady Obama on a war against obesity? Which may or may not be a good thing, but perhaps it shines an even more negative light on obesity. Thereby further demonizing it. Wouldn't it be better if it were a war on self acceptance and love? Shouldn't we be focused instead on telling them that it's ok to love yourself? That you are a unique individual who's worth loving. Shouldn't we be more focused on battling the negativeness that our children are bombarded with on a daily basis in regards to their appearance. Idk...to me it seems she has taken the easy way out, let's just battle the fat. Lol, now I have a vision of peace, love, and happiness... heehee. :)
And speaking of Mrs. Obama, have you seen the Oprah show she was on with the veterans? She was going on and on about how this was her mission. To shine the light on our veterans and that we need to become more aware of them and show greater appreciation. All of which is good. I suppose where I am going at is, if I were violently inclined I would want to slap her silly. Because if that is her mission, as she sais, as First Lady then why do we hear so much more and see so much more about her War On Obesity. Sigh....
But don't count me as much accurate information on her views. I tune in to hear it, get disgusted and tune it out as much as possible.
Woohoooo it's FRIDAY! :D
I just wrote a huge LONG comment and tried to post and the internet decided to eat it. Sigh...now I'm so mad and I have to leave for a doc appointment, so I'll just say Great Post! If I can remember half of what I said, I'll come back to fill it in later. ;)
ReplyDeleteYou don't disappoint me at all. I only want to support you and give you encouragement. If going to 98 or 100 is too much right now don't do it. Just be as healthy as you can physically and stay calm and carry on emotionally.
ReplyDeleteI think Karen put her finger on the issue when she said that overweight is perceived as a personal failing. Racists exist, but most people understand that you just can't change your skin colour. Someone with a facial disfigurement didn't wake up one day and say that it would be nice to have a hare lip.
ReplyDeleteHowever, we are constantly bombarded with messages that we are fat because it's our own damn fault. Every TV program on overweight has to include images of the subjects digging into thick, juicy hamburgers, dripping with fat; crispy fries; huge cakes; bags of chips; candy. And eating it all while they're sitting on the couch. The message is clear: they did it to themselves.
It makes for great TV, but it's not real life. It's just (pardon the pun), a slice of life. The world is full of people who eat reasonably, lead active lives and still have a muffin top. But that doesn't make for good TV. Oh yes, and the world also includes people who "overeat" and just don't get fat, as you pointed out yourself. But this doesn't make for good TV either.
But what makes me even sadder is the self-hate that permeates the weight-loss blogosphere. It's no wonder that children see fat people as the lowest of the low. The hate even comes from fat people themselves.
For now, I'll just leave it at that.
P.S. I have to admit that I worry about you too.
I've had crushes on fat guys, a guy with no arm, a guy with a facial deformity (a severe one), a guy in a wheelchair, a blind guy, and a stutterer. I guess my 'attractiveness radar" has a wide range. ; )
ReplyDeleteBut I do understand why they may pick obesity. I mean, there is so much baggage (look at TV, they'll show people in wheelchairs or prosthesis in positive lights, moreso than fat ones). In novels, a facial deformity can be romantic (Phantom of the Opera, Beauty and the Beast). Losing a limb or function can be seen as sympathetic (oh, they struggle, we must be sensitive) and we have a strong disability sensitive movement in the general media. And at base we think: "The disfigurement, disability, etc, can't be helped."
With some justification. We can help our obesity. We can't help it if we were born with a congenital deformity or acquired paralysis.
I suspect the outcomes might be different with ranges and photos. Show a photo of a facial deformity versus an attractive plus-sized obese model. Show degrees. Then see how the outcome of the study goes. Cause when peoople THINK obese, they may think Jabba the hut obese. They may not think pretty face or shapely legs or a gentle smile. Whereas they may attribute a MINIMAL facial deformity (rather than my friend's who I had a crush on who was so deformed, even some orderlies, children, colleagues, and nurses recoiled). Show them the variety and then let them choose.
I think we need to knwo what's in the mind to know why the decisions were made as they were.
I don't mind missing limbs, facial deformities, whieelchairs, etc. I would, aethetically, mind 500, 600 pounds. I've seen hot 350 pound guys (hot to me). But I've yet to see a guy who is superobese, the kind that really waddle and can barely stand...that I'd say.."Oh, yeah, I want to be that or get me some o' dat."
That said, I thought John Goodman on RoseAnne was sexy. :)
However, ask me when I was 11 years old, and I'd probably choose the fat guy last...
I'm also worried about Christina - Never the Skinny Girl. I keep looking for a post from her. Hopefully we will get one soon.
ReplyDeleteThis is really sad, and I know that is what I feel like society thinks of me. I still maintain it is our conditioning, no it's not healthy to be obese and it's definitely not fun but I'd be very surprised if these children were looking at the health side of the issue it's about aethetics and whether it's acceptable.
ReplyDeleteI know as an 11 year old I probably would have said the same thing despite being a fairly chunky 11 year old but that was because I was raised considering fat to be revolting and totally unacceptable... and it's certainly not something I'd want my children to have to experience, I'd focus on the health not the aesthetics but in the end we all know fitting in and being the norm when you're growing up is what it's all about!
twix, I don't know why Michelle Obama chose obese children as her focus as First Lady. It is a problem, that's for sure, and especially so among African-American children (and adults). She might be worried about her own daughters. It would be likely that they'd come home and want to diet. They're the right age. It's supported by surveys that girls, starting as young as eight, already worry about overweight. She's also emphasized the quality of the food children eat, which is very low. Poverty equates very strongly with obesity, too. There are so many reasons to choose childhood obesity, but I have no idea what Obama's are, nor why Ladybird Johnson wanted to put flowers on the medial strips of highways. They choose their causes.
ReplyDeleteI think you're pushing it a bit too far, however, with using the word "war." We have all sorts of wars besides real ones. The war on terrorism; the war on drugs, etc., use the term ill-advisedly. Did she say she's conducting a war on obesity? I hadn't heard that. In that case, she's using the word ill-advisedly, too.
Amanda, I'm throughly pissed that your comment was lost, especially a long one. I love them--they're intelligent and thoughtful. Shit. Poop. Caca.
ReplyDeleteNewMe, I agree and disagree. (We seem to do that a whole lot, don't we? lol But we come from different belief systems.) I think that losing weight is one of the hardest things a person can do. I know that quitting smoking was harder--I should say is harder, because it's maintenance, and that's hard for me. But losing weight comes right after.
ReplyDeleteBut like smoking, there IS a responsibility on the part of the user. No one ever got to 300, 400 pounds on salads, or cauliflower, or even potatoes. They got fat on salads dripping with ranch dressing and sprinkled with bacon; cauliflower drenched in cheese sauce; potatoes with butter, sour cream, and bacon bits, and so forth. They got fat on bacon cheeseburgers and all the big binge-out foods you listed, not tofu or seitan. There definitely are bad choices overweight and obese people make that they don't have to. No one put a gun to my head and said "Smoke or die." If anything, it was "Smoke and die," and I kept smoking. Same for the obese.
But that isn't the entire picture. Genetics (with smoking, too), psych/emotional problems (eating disorder), environmental triggers, and a whole bunch of things are thrown into the pot. How many obese people are truly active? Precious few. Let's not go from it's all the fat person's fault all the way to it's not at all their fault. The pendulum is swinging back to the physical and biological causes of obesity from the all-choice causes. It's neither.
I think you misread me. I never said I wasn't fat. I only said I couldn't get to 200 pounds (at that age). A "muffin top" isn't obesity, and obesity is what I was talking about. I'd be obese at around 180? 175? I can't recall. I could get to that today. But it wasn't 200, nor 300. I honestly believe I don't have that genetic potential, although I might at this age and activity level be able to get to 190, 200. The body changes.
I totally agree about the internalized self-loathing obese people have. This is true of all minorities, however, such as self-hating Jews, women, blacks, gay people, et al. I'd say it commonest with women and the obese, because the messages sent out by mass media, our general culture, religion (the sin of gluttony), and more are still negative, whereas they aren't for the others except homosexuals. JMO.
I really, really wish that overweight and obese people could love themselves. That would be the first step to a better, more inclusive world: inclusive of everyone.
Wouldn't a better world be awe-inspiring?
Answering your question about internalizing anger at my place - I do think women do so more than men. From my own experience I would avoid a confrontation in the interest of keeping the peace and the two boys. Women care more about keeping a home together in my opinion so put up with more. I have known women in my family who put up with so much because of the kids. Several did reach the breaking point and divorce. What burns my cookies is these men who put their wives through so much and when she says "enough" they cry and beg her not to leave and more burnt cookies - they often do stay because the thought of raising kids alone is daunting. This is from a woman's point of view and I know it's not always totally the man's fault. My husband and I went to a marriage workshop at Church called "His Needs, Her Needs". Number one on the man's list was "sex" (are you surprised?) and Number one on the woman's list was communication. Sex was number 3 on the woman's list. The other two on the man's list was he wanted her to take care of her looks, and he wanted a "buddy" meaning if he liked fishing he wanted her to go with him or if we like Nascar he wanted her to be a part of that too. Now the other one on the woman's list was a good provider. I am pretty sure I have these right. Now - where were we? I have been thinking about this terror you have about food/eating. My minor in college was Psychology and I have taught it at the high school level so I do know a dab but I wonder subconsciously if food/eating is your mother to you and this reaction you have to putting on a couple of pounds is tied to that? The word "is" should be in bold and underlined to mean food/eating and mother are interchangeable. I pray for you and Christina - I hope you will draw on that and feel it when tough times come around.
ReplyDeletePD, you're definitely an equal opportunity dater! lol I dated one guy, when I was away from home at college, who was blind and wore hearing aids. I guess my mother must have told my father about him, since when he was talking on the phone to me, he said all he has to be now is black. (My father was a terrible racist in most things.) What he didn't know was that the guy was Puerto Rican--lol.
ReplyDeleteI know I wouldn't be physically attracted to someone who weighed 500-600 lbs. But being that big says a lot more than being unattractive sexually to me. You know how one's eyes can be buried in flesh? That's not appealing, nor is the idea he couldn't get around without help. Luciano Pavarotti was sexy, but in a wheelchair because he ultimately got so big he couldn't walk? No, that's not sexy. So I do understand what you're saying, absolutely.
I think we need to knwo what's in the mind to know why the decisions were made as they were.
That is SO true.
Thanks for your post. You always come from a different angle.
Yes, downsizers--where is Christina? She's been so down, lately. Does she do this often?
ReplyDeleteI have just recently started following so I don't have any history to draw upon to know if she does this often.
ReplyDelete". . . in the end we all know fitting in and being the norm when you're growing up is what it's all about!"
ReplyDeleteD..., this is so true. All I really wanted at that age was to be like the other kids. Maybe even like the popular kids. I hung around with them, but I wasn't one of them. I wasn't pretty, or slender, etc. But failing popular, fitting in would have been wonderful. (Maybe I did, but didn't realize it?)
I see what you mean about beliefs as children as opposed to adulthood, as well as being taught that obesity is repugnant. Yes, I don't think that it's a natural prejudice. It's learned, just like racism. No one is born that way. We may be extra-curious about those who are "different" (other primates are), or even wary. But feel hatred? Nope. No evidence for that at all.
Why haven't you written in your blog lately? It's fascinating. I want to comment on the BED. I love the way you write about it--you're becoming so open.
That's a wonderful workshop to have at a church. It must be a rather advanced one. I can't imagine a workshop like that at a "backwards" church, you know?
ReplyDeleteNotice how the man's needs are him (sex), him (she looks good for him, making him look important to other men), and him (accompany me to my interests). Hers are us (communication), the family, children (a good provider), and something else that might or might not have anything to do with her. Interesting (said sarcastically).
I don't know (don't think, really) that my eating/ED/food is my mother; however, you're right that it probably has something to do with her. The ED is always worse after speaking to her on Fridays, for instance. She had/has an ED, pretty serious. She did weirdo things to me about it that I despise thinking about. She taught me that obesity was disgusting; meantime, she was obese (self-loathing). She was/is pretty much a classic case.
I'll think more about what you wrote. There might be more to it that I can't see clearly right this minute. Thanks for making me think. I need that.
I've written somewhere (it may be a future post or on someone's blog) about forgiving. I knew my father was ashamed of me for being fat. He had a hateful mouth. In order to let go of that, I forgave him which isn't to say absolve him of how he treated me but so that I could move on. I told myself that that was the best he could do at the time. The forgiving was for me. Forgiving your mother would be for you. She obviously has major problems and is probably a very miserable person. I heard a saying that carrying a grudge is like being stung to death by one bee.
ReplyDeleteThanks FF, I think it is absolutely how we are raised, if the focus is being accepting open, unprejudiced human beings then there shouldn't be a problem but society as a whole is not that way inclined!
ReplyDeleteI just needed a break from the blog, I'm back though :-)
I just want to say that I found this very interesting.
ReplyDeleteDid my comment not work? :(
ReplyDelete